Jump to content

Disclaimer



Photo

Sniper question


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 DocScurlock

DocScurlock

    Doc

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 172 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting, unagented
  • LocationUS Southeast
  • Publishing Experience:I have not been published and have no interest in self publishing.

Posted 14 May 2016 - 06:48 PM

If a sniper a half mile away shot a hollow jacketed cartridge at a standing human target...aproximately how long after the targets chest exploded would there be an audible crack in the vacinity of the target? Or would their be?

(You and I are standing fifty feet from the victim. Would we hear the rifle shot and if so how long after the victim fell would we hear it?)

#2 UnkownGhost

UnkownGhost

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting
  • LocationUS Northeast
  • Publishing Experience:I've been published in a small local magazine aimed towards canine enthusiast. I've also worked on several major projects for corporations like Lockheed, OBD Software, Cinemaware, and TMR Designs.

Posted 15 May 2016 - 12:39 PM

Here's an counter sniping rule I learned.

 

After the bullet hits start counting. For each second that passes is about how many hundred yards the sniper is away.

 

There are all sorts of tables and values to calculate this too.

 

If my math is right I'd say about 13-14 seconds until the report of the weapon is heard. If it's an urban area the shot was made in ... good luck finding the sniper. That's the reason the DC Sniper was so hard to locate. People were already panicking when the target was down, then report could echo off the buildings around him and no one could really pin point it.

 

That's about all I have with my limited knowledge in these things. I can go find some more experts for you though. I can't promise you anything but I can try if you want me too.

 

All the above the timing, depends on the rifle, caliber, etc. I'd have to ask why a hollowpoint? Why not a .308 FMJ or if you're really wanting someone's chest to explode why not a .50? Either of those will do some serious damage. Especially a .50 cal. Soldiers have told me that just the shock-wave from a .50 can rip someones arm off.

 

But if this is a war story then you couldn't use the .50 cal on a person because the Geneva Convention says it's supposed to be for anti equipment uses. It's inhuman to kill with a .50 .. that's war crime stuff right there.

 

Personally I'll never understand half the rules Geneva Convention comes out with. You can shoot a human with a .50 cal round but hey it's okay if their bodies get shredded by the cannons of an Apache helicopter or the depleted uranium rounds of an A-10. F-18s can't gun down humans either (war crime ... heard a crazy story about that too)

 

NO I NEVER SERVED.

 

Edit: I went ahead and posted your question along with my own question. I've been meaning to ask a few snipers that question for a while but just never got around to it.



#3 DocScurlock

DocScurlock

    Doc

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 172 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting, unagented
  • LocationUS Southeast
  • Publishing Experience:I have not been published and have no interest in self publishing.

Posted 15 May 2016 - 03:12 PM

Thanks.

No not urban...not really. A 20 acre partially wooded area in the mountains of Washington.

At the end of the novel a guy catches up with the people sheltering his wife and kids. (He is an abusive drunk and they ran away.) Due to the sort of intentional community run by these men they have ex military living on the grounds recovering from PTSD and do forth. So they engage Snipers to protect the place. One of those takes out the abusive drunk. I have yet to figure out the amo. But a Fifty Mike Mike might just work.

#4 UnkownGhost

UnkownGhost

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting
  • LocationUS Northeast
  • Publishing Experience:I've been published in a small local magazine aimed towards canine enthusiast. I've also worked on several major projects for corporations like Lockheed, OBD Software, Cinemaware, and TMR Designs.

Posted 15 May 2016 - 03:50 PM

.308 is the standard round for most snipers. More accuracy over a longer range. Whereas a .50 cal is heavier. However depending on your time frame there are bullets that are being developed which can correct their flight path up to 2 inches in either direction.

 

But a .50 cal is always a crowd pleasure.



#5 UnkownGhost

UnkownGhost

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting
  • LocationUS Northeast
  • Publishing Experience:I've been published in a small local magazine aimed towards canine enthusiast. I've also worked on several major projects for corporations like Lockheed, OBD Software, Cinemaware, and TMR Designs.

Posted 15 May 2016 - 03:53 PM

Oh got a hit BTW. This is from another forum I hang out on. Note this from a member either is serving or has served in the British Military. *Yes these things get verified*

 

Well the Crack would be almost instantaneous did he mean the crack of the bullet, or the thump of the report from the weapon being fired as a the 7.62 mm round has an approx. muzzle velocity of 2800 FPS or 854 MPS and there are 5280 feet in a mile means the round would strike target at 2640 feet at that short range the crack and thump would be pretty much concurrent. so any one in the immediate area of the poor unfortunate who has just been slotted would have little or no time to differentiate the two sounds, and would most likely be more concerned about finding cover, before attempting to locate the shooter, by which time the sniper would have probably moved anyhow

 



#6 DocScurlock

DocScurlock

    Doc

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 172 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting, unagented
  • LocationUS Southeast
  • Publishing Experience:I have not been published and have no interest in self publishing.

Posted 15 May 2016 - 04:39 PM

Oh got a hit BTW. This is from another forum I hang out on. Note this from a member either is serving or has served in the British Military. *Yes these things get verified*

p

Excellent. And they don't care where the sniper is and are already covered. The sniper is theirs after all.

#7 UnkownGhost

UnkownGhost

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 17 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting
  • LocationUS Northeast
  • Publishing Experience:I've been published in a small local magazine aimed towards canine enthusiast. I've also worked on several major projects for corporations like Lockheed, OBD Software, Cinemaware, and TMR Designs.

Posted 15 May 2016 - 08:50 PM

I smell what you're stepping in.

 

You're like me. The tiniest of details make all the difference. They can either make or break something.



#8 KHPatton

KHPatton

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Literary Status:emerging, unagented
  • LocationUS Southwest
  • Publishing Experience:I wrote stories for a compilation of remembrances from my years at the University of Maryland, Munich Campus, Germany that is due for publication this year.

Posted 24 May 2016 - 11:14 AM

Just wanted to point out, that there is no such thing as "shooting a hollow jacketed cartridge".

 

A cartridge is made up of four components, the cartridge case, the powder in the case, the primer in the bottom of the cartridge case and the projectile.

 

The projectile is shot down range.  The cartridge is fired and remains in the weapon. The powder is consumed by the firing. The primer remains in the primer pocket in the base of the cartridge case.

 

Another thing.  A FMG bullet, a full metal jacketed bullet will not cause a "chest to explode".  It is fairly surgical and will zip right through a person.  The notion that a body jerks and jumps with bullet impacts is a Hollywood invention.  If a FMJ bullet his a person it sails right through and might cause some impact response if it hits a dense bone.

 

On the other hand, an expandable bullet, one designed to expand on impact can cause catastrophic results, but the target's chest will not explode, more likely his back will.  You are mistaking the Hollywood special effects man's exploding squibs for real life.  An expandable bullet, like a hunting bullet is designed to enlarge in caliber upon impact and impart all its considerable energy into the body of the target in the form of a hydraulic shock wave.  It creates an enormous would channel compared to its diameter and if it hits bone, the bone splinters and creates bone shrapnel that will increase the wounding effect.

 

If the bullet does not expend all its energy inside the target, it might exit on the rear side driving bone and other matter out with it, creating what you could call a small explosion.

 

The catastrophic effects you see in pictures of head wounds are the result of the hydraulic shock wave caused by the bullet in semi fluid material in a confined space.  Kind of like shooting a milk jug.

 

I hope this helps a bit.  Even the screenplay of the movie "Shooter" contained erroneous facts. The whole notion of a paper patched modern bullet was pure fantasy. Bores on modern rifles are too tight for that to work unless the assassin's rifle had been bored out to accommodate the extra thick ness of the paper. If not the paper patched previously fired bullet would not have even fit in the chamber.



#9 KHPatton

KHPatton

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Literary Status:emerging, unagented
  • LocationUS Southwest
  • Publishing Experience:I wrote stories for a compilation of remembrances from my years at the University of Maryland, Munich Campus, Germany that is due for publication this year.

Posted 24 May 2016 - 11:46 AM

A fifty mike mike would be a fifty millimeter and would be larger than the cannon on the A-10 Warthog which fires 30mm.  Caliber is measured in  fraction of inches.  .50, .30. .308.  Depending on your character and the time frame, you might want to go with the old standby .30-06 which is the US standard rifle bullet since WWI up to Vietnam.  We changed to .308 aka 7.65 mm Nato as a compromise with NATO, France, Germany Britain and the US all adopted it for the same of commonality.  The standard caliber for rifles is .223 or 5.56mm.

 

Today, many sniper teams are opting for something between .308 and the .50 calibers for sniping.  Contrary to the movies, the .50 is an anti-material weapon.  It can disable soft skinned vehicles, disable aircraft, and even destroy targeting and vision equipment on armored vehicles.  It is way, way, way overkill for a person.  So the Brits and other allies have opted for the .338  Lapua Magnum.  It is driven by a powder charge that is considerably larger than the standard sniper cartridge and is also an anti personnel and material cartridge.  If holds the record for the longest confirmed kill at 2700 yards.  It is based on the old Rigby .417 big game cartridge and is used for big game as well.

 

The accuracy of a bullet has more to do with the precision of its manufacture and loading.  Match ammunition used for sniping is made to meticulous standards.  This same precision is obtainable by hand loading match components on a bench loader.  It all depends on anal retentive the loader is.  I used to weigh my powder out with an old balance scaled in grains.  If I wanted to pay more, I could have purchased match grade spitzter bullets, that were more expensive.  Cartridges have to be sized and necked down to fine tolerances and if you want to be sure, you mic them with a micrometer for consistency.  I never went to great pains since I was only hunting whitetail and shooting on a range.

 

If shooting from a hard bench a gun will fire with great consistency unless the cartridge components introduce variability.  Then add in the wind and temperature.  Temperature effects the rate at which the powder burns and effects the muzzle velocity which will vary the impact point down range. All these things enter in before a human even gets behind the gun, then the ability or lack of ability of the shooter eclipses all those variables and accounts for more inaccuracy than all the others put together.

 

Remember too, that a 200-400 yard shot is not that difficult on a man sized target if you have a well sighted in rifle and scope combination.  Today's scopes with 10X or greater magnification increase any shooter's ability IF it is properly sighted in for that shooter.  Eye relief (distance from scope to eye based on the shooter's ergonomics is very important.  If you have ever picked up a scoped rifle and looked through it, you might find that you have to move your eye forward or backward to get a complete picture in the scope.  That is because who ever mounted the scope did it for his eye relief.  This is based on the spot weld of your check on the stock.  Much like shooting a bow, its about consistency.  You put your cheek on the same spot every time and presto! You have a perfect sight picture.  Someone else tries it, and its all screwed up since their face is longer or shorter.

 

What a lot of hunters do not consider when they are sighting their rifles in on the range in the fall, is that come winter time, they will be wearing a thick parka, long johns, a shirt and maybe a pull over, which adds about an inch and a half thickness to their shoulder which will push their gun out by that much and guess what happens to their scope eye relief?  Yeah, you got it. Its all screwed up come opening day and they can't figure out why they missed that big buck.

 

Recall the movie "Ghost and the Darkness" with Michael Douglas and Val Kilmer about the man eater lions?  How Kilmer's character borrowed the doctor's gun and took it out on a hunt and never fired it?  Total BS.  That would never happen particularly to a soldier.  Nice plot device, but to me it ruined the movie since it was implausible. Would you trust you life to a weapon if you didn't even know if it worked or was sighted in worth a crap?  It had open sights but they can be knocked out of alignment all too easily so that you can miss not by inches but feet.



#10 Veldehar

Veldehar

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts
  • Literary Status:emerging
  • LocationUS Midwest

Posted 30 May 2016 - 06:38 PM

 

Recall the movie "Ghost and the Darkness" with Michael Douglas and Val Kilmer about the man eater lions?  How Kilmer's character borrowed the doctor's gun and took it out on a hunt and never fired it?  Total BS.  That would never happen particularly to a soldier.  Nice plot device, but to me it ruined the movie since it was implausible. Would you trust you life to a weapon if you didn't even know if it worked or was sighted in worth a crap?  It had open sights but they can be knocked out of alignment all too easily so that you can miss not by inches but feet.

 

 

Not quite as bad as firing an empty Henry rifle in Dances with Wolves, heh heh. Of course, I groan every time a gunfighter fans his revolver too. 



#11 Pen

Pen

    Veteran Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 733 posts
  • Literary Status:just starting
  • LocationUS Southeast

Posted 31 May 2016 - 06:18 PM

That's funny because I was just thinking about the actual events of Ghost in the Darkness.

 

Anyway. I must thank you for taking the time to provide all of that wonderful information KHPatton.

 

You've mentioned .50 cal being used as anti-equipment. I know in this day and time using one on a human means serious trouble for the shooter.

 

But is there ever a situation where a .50 cal can be used on a human target in war? As in there are no other alternatives to stop the Opfor except for the .50 cal.



#12 KHPatton

KHPatton

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Literary Status:emerging, unagented
  • LocationUS Southwest
  • Publishing Experience:I wrote stories for a compilation of remembrances from my years at the University of Maryland, Munich Campus, Germany that is due for publication this year.

Posted 01 June 2016 - 08:56 AM

I think they use .50 on people for grins.  Marine sniper Carlos Hathcock put his Uterl (sp) scope on a .50 cal machine gun when he was stationed on a firebase in Nam.  The gun could shoot one round at a time if the trigger paddle was pressed gently.  He took out a VC walking a bicycle loaded with equipment with it at some ridiculous range.  More recently the .50 has been used on personnel when penetration was needed.  There was a show on that recounted how a group of insurgents were behind a cinderblock wall firing RPGs at some American troops.  The shooter was on over watch, so he fired a number or rounds from a Barret through the wall and killed the insurgents.

 

The closest thing I have seen in cinema that approaches what a .50 slug weighing almost 1.7 ounces (the equivalent of around 20 US pennies) hitting a person was in Stallone's last Rambo movie, entitled Rambo where using a soviet version of the .50 (NSV 12.7mm) he dismembers a lot of Burmese soldiers.

 

As A kid living on Okinawa, I used to pick up expended .50 projectiles.  I found mainly ball FMG but on occasion found spent tracer rounds too. They tended to corrode and degrade more due to the temperature of the phosphorous compound used in the tail end to make the tracer effect.  Hefting the spent ball rounds, I often tried to imagine what one of those things would do to a person.  There was an old 120mm artillery piece at the local museum on Ft. Buckner.  It was covered from muzzle to tail with deep gouges caused by being strafed by US aircraft firing .50 cal. 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users